HDDriver and SCSI CR-RW drives (Yamaha CRW-4416)

[fujiyama]

Trying to set up a Yamaha CRW-4416 (SCSI CD-RW drive) and having little success with it I'm wondering how HDDriver supports these kind of drives and if there are any special settings or ways to use a drive like that with TOS 2.06/Atari STe?
I'm currently using HDDriver 10.10 (actually just upgraded to version 11, but not installed it on the Atari yet).

I've also installed Anodyne Extendos 4 (released by the author as freeware) but I'm unsure if it's still needed -is this still needed with recent HDDriver versions? According to the HDDriver "features" page it suppports CD-writers but I'm not sure what this means in layman's terms.

I noticed that when using an ICD Link II or a GEsoft ACSI-SCSI host adapter the CD-RW drive isn't shown in HDDriver (but appears in Anodyne Extendos while scanning the SCSI bus, but is greyed out further in the configuration), but if I use a Link 97 host adapter it's also shown in HDDriver, but I'm still not able to open the drive on the TOS desktop, nor burn a CD-R or even play an audio CD (I could do this fine with a Plextor CD-ROM drive (not a writer).

Basically I'm wondering what part HDDriver plays in using this CD-RW drive? I've seen this particular drive mentioned several years ago in this forum, but since that's several versions ago of HDDriver, and I suspect things might have changed since then.

[uweseimet]

HDDRIVER supports these drives (like other non hard-disk devices) by optionally providing low-level SCSI access via HDDRIVER's SCSI Driver. Please see the SCSI Driver page on the HDDRIVER website for details.
HDDRIVER has built-in support for random access drives like hard disks, memory cards, or also optical media that provide for random access, like DVD-RAM/DVD+RW/BD-RE media as long as they were partitioned in the usual way.
For media with ISO filesystems, like in your case, you need specialized driver software like Extendos. As far as I know you can configure Extendos to completely use its built-in driver or to use a SCSI Driver if available. I recommend contacting Anodyne on the details.
Note that HDDRUTIL should always find all connected devices when you run the device check. Whether HDDRIVER checks for a device depends on the devices and LUNs configured with "Partitions and Devices" or "Autoconfiguration", resp. Once more the manual has the details.

[fujiyama]

Thanks for explaining. I will be looking further into this when I receive the manual I've ordered.

It turns out the mistake was a silly one on my part.
For some reason the mentioned device wasn't displayed/found when booting. Only my two CF memory cards (connected to a MonSTer board) showed up, and this was despite having all the units enabled (black) in "Devices and partitions" then rebooting. Very strange.
After many failed attempts I finally tried "Autoconfiguration", rebooting and then the Yamaha 4416 showed up along with the two memory cards!
I also made some changes in the Extendos settings, but in any case this shouldn't affect the device appearing when booting the computer.

Now I've successfully written (burnt) a CD-R, was able to open it on the TOS desktop and even played an audio CD so it's definitely working.
Next I'll try the two other host adapters (ICD Link II and GEsoft) to see if that makes a difference.

[uweseimet]

Usually it is a good idea to rely on the autoconfiguration. Provided that all relevant devices are turned on, of course ;-).

Looks as if you had not configured all relevant devices or LUNs after all. For devices that shall be fully managed by HDDRIVER, i.e. devices with regular partitions, it is mandatory to not just enable the actual device but also the existing LUNs. In most cases there is only LUN 0. If you do not configure any LUN but just the device itself, the device will only be accessible on the SCSI Driver level.

All in all, you have to view HDDRIVER as consisting of two layers: The low-level SCSI Driver layer, and on top of this the actual hard disk driver. Tihs is also how device drivers for current operating systems work: At least one layer for low-level access, and other layers on top of it. This way high-level drivers are decoupled from low-level things like bus protocols.
If you want to read a sector, for instance, you are usually not interested in whether this sector is on an IDE, SCSI, SATA, USB ... device. You just want to tell the lower-level layer to read the sector for you. In the case of HDDRIVER this means that the higher-level HDDRIVER code just tells the lower level SCSI Driver code to read the sector. And because of this separation HDDRIVER and HDDRUTIL can also access USB devices, for instance, even though HDDRIVER and HDDRUTIL themselves do not know how to address USB devices. All it needs is a SCSI Driver for USB to have been started, and then HDDRIVER and HDDRUTIL (or also Extendos and some other tools) work on top of it
The SCSI Driver for Hatari and ARAnyM is another example: With this driver (see the SCSI Driver page on the HDDRIVER site) HDDRIVER and HDDRUTIL can directly access native LInux devices. Hatari and ARAnyM provide the required low-level SCSI Driver code.

[fujiyama]

i'm glad you implemented the "auto configure" feature because it makes life easier for those who don't understand the different LUNs and devices.
And it helps to turn on the devices as well ;-)

I did contact Anodyne and was told that the need for an ACSI-SCSI host adapter with "bus arbitration" (WB Systemtechnik Link '96 or Link '97) depends on the device itself as some depend fully on it, others partly and yet other devices that don't need to rely on this at all. I suppose my Yamaha CRW-4416 is dependant on arbitration to work. Fortunately things seem a little simpler with CD-ROM (readers) devices.

A little off-topic perhaps, but this might be the best place to ask: do you know of any specs and/or user manuals available for the ICD Link II, GEsoft host adapter and Link 97? Preferrably in English, but German is OK too.
It would be useful to know which host adapter can do what, and what their practical limitations are.

[uweseimet]

I'm afraid I don't have specs for these adapters, but see the HDDRIVER FAQ ("HDDRIVER does not detect a SCSI drive connected to the ST/STE.") for notes on some adapters.
Note that bus arbitration is not relevant in this context. Bus arbitration deals with several computers being connected to the same bus. With ACSI bus arbiration is not possible at all anyway. Initiator identification, which means that the computer has a unique SCSI ID of its own, is the relevant feature. Only the host adapters mentioned in the HDDRIVER FAQ support it. Bus arbitration is only possible with real SCSI, and HDDRIVER supports it for TT and Falcon. This means that you can connect more than one computer to the same bus without having problems on the SCSI level. Note that this does not prevent your data to be damaged when the computers modify data on the same partition.

[fujiyama]

Aha! That was my next question, which you now answered :-)
Still, it's impressive what a plain ST can do, and with flash memory instead of noisy, slow and bulky hard drives I'm more than happy anyway.

Thanks for making HDDriver and still supporting/updating it!